Who's Winning in Home Health and Hospice? New 2026 Data + Trella Health's AI First Look

About This Episode

Transcript

Tom Maxwell (00:18)

All right, welcome back to the Last Visit First Podcast, the industry's leading podcast. thank you again for all you subscribers out there. It's making this podcast great. Today I have with me two distinguished gentlemen at Trella Health. Scott Tapp is the CEO of Trella Health and Carter is the senior consultant of data and analytics. So one of the coolest titles around. Welcome to the T welcome to the call, guys.

Scott Tapp (00:40)

Hey, thanks, Tom. Good to see you again, man. We're excited to

see you and hear what's going on and how you've been doing and how the industry's shaking up these days. And I'm happy to have Carter here as always. Th these guys behind the scenes in our data science and technology world have been uncovering with you know our billions of data insights, billions of data metrics, and commercial and CMS data, among others. Just some amazing insights that we're gonna

Give you some insights on what's happening in the market from our view as well.

Tom Maxwell (01:12)

That's awesome. So Trella Health publishes a post-acute market intelligence report annually. It's become the resource many industry leaders use for their data and the data science. I know we use it in all of our board decks and those kind of things. And each year it comes across pretty special. It it it really shows some of the best insights and data out there. The report brings together Trello's extensive healthcare claims data and analytics and identifies the trends shaping the post-acute care market from Medicare Advantage, Medicare utilization, referral patterns, cost, quality.

This year you published a report that's a little bit different. Tell us what's different.

Carter Bakkum (01:46)

Yeah, great question. The so in the past, we've provided the industry trend report, which has previously just been a static PDF with a chart and then some some analysis that accompanied the chart. this year there are three major changes. The first of which is you know the rebrand to the market intelligence report. It is now housed in a different location. There's still a PDF available, but the primary way to access the market intelligence report now.

Is through a web portal that you can you can access. And I believe that there should be a a link in the description of the podcast if you're interested in. The

Tom Maxwell (02:23)

For sure.

Carter Bakkum (02:24)

second major change is the interactability that comes with this report. Us hosting the report on the website rather than a static PDF allows users to drill down into their individual markets, allows them to look at a whole bunch of different metrics and look at hover over.

information that may be a little bit opaque or difficult to see on a static graph. And the third major change is the amount of data that we're able to put into this report. So when we have a static PDF, there's only so much information that we can put in one or two graphs that we end up publishing. However, with the interactability we can end up putting way, way, way more information than just in a static PDF document.

So these all of these these three kind of innovations in conjunction allow for a much more interactive report where you're able to drill down and identify not just the national trends, but the trends within your individual market, sliced by a bunch of different metrics. So we're really excited about this report and hopefully it is it is easy to use and really helpful for the industry to see where we're headed next.

Tom Maxwell (03:39)

Yeah, it's one of the complaints that we're not complaining, but one of the the topics we always talked about is great, we get the national, you know, benchmark on rehospitalization or you know number of patients that are being served in an area. But that's the national level. Now I want to be able to drill into my branch in South Carolina that or my branch in Minnesota and and who my competitors are and what the statistics are. That's really cool that you did it. I'd love to see I think you can show it to us at some point.

Scott Tapp (04:01)

We're gonna yeah, we're

gonna show it to you, Tom. And I think the goal is real simple. You know, we're always trying to make surfacing insights easier for everyone. That's the goal, right? So you'll see as we walk you through this how intuitive and easy it is for anyone to be able to jump in and start digging in and uncovering some real insights to help them in their business.

Tom Maxwell (04:23)

What else is going on with the report? I know you you guys added a bunch more data around Medicare Advantage data for the home health sectors as well as SNF sectors. Is that all in there as well?

Carter Bakkum (04:32)

Yeah,

so there are three primary data sources that are used in the report. the first of which is the Virtual Data Research Center, or VRDC, which houses 100% of fee for service finalized claims data. So we have 100% of the fee for service market. That's what drives probably about 95% of the information that you're seeing in the report. In addition to that, we have publicly available enrollment data that CMS publishes on a monthly basis.

That is really just to drive that drives the enrollment section of the report. And then finally, we have a one of our new innovations is we added in a home medical equipment and infusion section to this, as that's part of becoming more and more part of post-acute care. And in that HME and infusion section, we augment the VRDC, the fee for service data, with third-party Medicare Advantage and commercial claims data.

So it's it that gives a more more of a little bit more of a holistic view overall. But we also have Medicare Advantage data from the VRDC in some of the other sections. if we want to just kind of dive in on the the first the first what it looks like, how what's new, how it's different, I can share my screen.

Tom Maxwell (05:48)

man, that's gonna be awesome. This might be the first time on the Last Visit First Podcast

Carter Bakkum (05:51)

Okay.

Tom Maxwell (05:53)

that we've actually had someone share their screen and going live. Let's go.

Scott Tapp (05:54)

We're going live, man. We're going live. This is truly live.

Carter Bakkum (05:56)

Yeah. Yeah.

Are you are you able to see my screen? I just went double check. Okay,

Scott Tapp (06:00)

It's great, dude.

Tom Maxwell (06:01)

Perfect. Yeah.

Carter Bakkum (06:02)

cool. all right, so this is the new market intelligence report. As I said, it's it's hosted on the web. There is a PDF version, but again, that's gonna be static. It's not gonna have the interactability that you're you're going to see with the web version. But you still have that PDF available. And starting off, you know, the first thing

Overall, the trends by industry, we have sections for same sections as the industry trend report where Medicare Advantage, Post acute discharges, home health, et cetera. and you can navigate through all of these either using the information on the left or up here at the top. Now, the first thing is, and I would encourage anybody who is first interacting with the market intelligence report, is to just

spend some time looking through the key trends, the just the the six kind of elements that we identified as being the most important kind of broad takeaways. If you're if you don't have a ton of time to go dive into the data, these six takeaways give you a little bit of a sense of of what's going on and where we're headed.

Tom Maxwell (07:09)

So what is going on? Where are we headed?

Carter Bakkum (07:10)

Yeah,

yeah. So I think the first thing that I really want to talk about is looking at the national Medicare Advantage Penetration. And something really interesting happened in 2026, between 2025 and 2026, that kind of bulked its normal trend. So over the last decade or so, Medicare Advantage penetration rate has continually increased. However, starting in between twenty twenty-five and twenty twenty six.

There is actually a decrease in the Medicare Advantage penetration rate. You can see, or excuse me, there is a static Medicare Advantage penetration rate of 55.4% in 2025 and 2026. And that coincided with an actual increase in Medicare fee for service enrollment. Now, one thing that again, I want to illustrate some of the interactability of the of these trends.

Is that if you wanted to drill down to a specific market or multiple markets, you have the ability to select an individual state or multiple states in order to see what the trends are for those states or combination of states. So for example, if I operated in California and Arizona, I can now see: okay, here's the Medicare Advantage Penetration Rate enrollment trend.

for those two markets as a whole. So you get this holistic view, you're able to mix and match any of the states that you're interested in seeing. You get this holistic view of your particular market, and then you can also compare that to the national benchmarks.

Tom Maxwell (08:47)

That's awesome. What what do you think's causing that trend? Any ideas, Scott or Carter?

Carter Bakkum (08:51)

one of the the the trend is extremely interesting. And I think there are a couple of variables that are impacting the kind of plateau of the Medicare advantage penetration rate compared to previous years where it's just up, up, up. And the first one I the first example of kind of what I feel like might be a canary in the coal mine, an indication is a particular state.

So actually scrolling down to this Medicare Advantage Penetration by State chart, we have we have look all the hexagons looking at represent an individual state, and you're able to click on an individual state and see key takeaways as well as trends going back four years for that particular state. And I want to highlight Vermont in particular for a couple of reasons. First of which is you can just see, you know, it it was.

Fairly consistent between 2023 and 2024. It dropped a little bit in 2025, and then it just fell off of a cliff in 2026. The primary reason for this substantial decrease in Medicare advantage penetration, it's almost a 20 percentage point decrease in the penetration rate, is because of payers, major payers, actually leaving the market.

So in between twenty five and twenty twenty six, both United Health and BCBS, Blue Cross Blue Shield of Vermont exited the Vermont market for Medicare Advantage. Now they still may have commercial plans that are operate in Vermont, but their Medicare Advantage business has completely exited.

One interesting element about this is that the beneficiaries in Vermont, they do have other options when it comes to Medicare Advantage plans. So they could have switched when the United, when United or BCBS Vermont, when they left, they could have switched to a different Medicare Advantage plan. But by and large, they chose to go back to traditional Medicare or fee for service Medicare coverage. I say that this is a bellwether.

I've noticed this in a couple of other states, particularly New Hampshire. If we can look at New Hampshire, there's a slight, there's about a five percentage point decrease. There's another decrease in Idaho and Wyoming. If here's Idaho, we can see a small decrease, and Wyoming has another small decrease. But another and again, I think these are similar, similar causes as to why that we saw these decreases, these Medicare Advantage plans.

leaving some of these more rural areas. I know that in Minnesota there was a big plan that left the UCARE, which is a major plan in Minnesota. That actually left the Medicare Advantage portion of their business left Minnesota. So what I think what what I think this means in the in the grand scheme of things and moving forward is Medicare Advantage, the penetration rate has always been very urban focused. If you look at kind of a county level map or breakdown,

You'll notice really, really high concentrations of Medicare Advantage enrollment in urban areas. So if you look at, for instance, Los Angeles County in California or Kings County in New York, Medicare Advantage penetration rate is upwards of 70, 80% in those areas. So those those areas, those urban areas where it's relatively simple to build a network for a Medicare Advantage plan and have fairly good reimbursement rates.

Are still kind of the bread and butter Medicare advantage as they've moved towards the more rural area because those urban areas are getting more saturated. Over the last five years, they've in moved more into these rural areas. And I know specifically Humana had a big initiative to increase their Medicare advantage in rural areas in North Carolina. We're actually seeing now that they've tested or they've had a couple of years to get the data, to get the information on how those rural areas are performing.

Now they're actually leaving those and just leaving it to for traditional Medicare coverage.

Tom Maxwell (12:58)

You think it's more

around marketing? You think it that's what it is? Like in the r in the urban areas they just do a better job of marketing, they have more T V ads, more doctors ads, more those kind of things, or do you think it's well I mean, there's gotta be a trend around that somewhere.

Carter Bakkum (13:10)

Potentially. I will say in where I live, I live in in eastern Tennessee and I can't go two minutes without seeing a Medicare Advantage ad. So I'm not entirely sure that it's due to marketing because I there they're it feels like they're everywhere. However, I I think a a bigger part of it is the actual margins that they're that Medicare Advantage plans are able to get in the per beneficiary in these more rural areas.

And this is because of how Medicare reimburses Medicare Advantage plans by patient. So the margins are the cost of care, the expected cost of care for beneficiaries in urban areas is higher because of the CPI is higher in those areas. The cost index is higher in those areas. So the reimbursement per patient is higher in those areas. So the margins for Medicare Advantage plans are higher in those areas. In rural areas,

The margins are a lot thinner. and I think that that is a major factor of why Medicare Advantage plans are considering leaving some of these more rural areas.

I have one last one last potential potentially contributing factor to Medicare Advantage plans, at least considering exiting some of these more rural markets, is the ending of the contract or the the termination of the contract between the Medicare Advantage plans and some of the major health systems that operate in these areas. I can say in my I I know in the

In southeastern Virginia, for example, in the Norfolk area, there's a Centara Health is a massive health system. And they are actually set to terminate their Medicare Advantage contract with Anthem in at the end of this year. so some in some of these areas, these rural areas where there's one dominant health system, if the Medicare Advantage plan can't maintain a contract with those that

dominant almost monopolistic health system, then it they're not really able to provide care for the beneficiaries in that area.

Scott Tapp (15:18)

You know, y just anecdotally, Tom, I personally think that these MA plans, when they can go into larger markets and larger MSAs, especially with growing populations and some of the elderly populations that we know of, they also have more providers that they can negotiate with. I I personally find that you know, they have better benefit when they have choice and selectivity and they're able to negotiate with providers because they're ultimately trying to reduce cost. So supply enables them to do that and

probably has a lot to do with some of the reasons their strategy behind staying in the larger markets and pulling out on some of the rural.

Tom Maxwell (15:55)

Yeah, so if you think about our listeners who are the home health hospice, SNF, you know, HME providers, Carter, Sky like how how does this impact them? I mean, they're they're having to go out of network on a lot of these patients, or they're getting more fee for service patients now. Is that is that where we're seeing this go to?

Carter Bakkum (16:12)

So it really, really depends

on the market. I mean, if you're a home health provider or a hospice provider in Vermont, your Medicare advantage landscape has completely changed. You know, if you had a great contract or a bad contract with one of the payers that left that Vermont market, then your entire business has essentially your its source of revenue has totally changed.

However, if you're in areas where there wasn't all that much of a of a change, where there weren't wasn't a big change, you know, there's, for example, in Texas, there's only about a half a percentage point change in the Medicare Advantage penetration rate. It's it's kind of business as usual where you need to be aware of the local dynamics of the Medicare Advantage plans that are that are entering and leaving the market as part of the typical kind of turnover for these plans year over year.

So it really, really depends on your particular market and all health care is local. So you need to be an expert in what's going on in your particular area.

Tom Maxwell (17:14)

Pretty amazing. It's really cool that you guys can dive dive this deep into that level of data. What else is out there?

Carter Bakkum (17:21)

Yeah, so I think if you want to move into the hospice, I think okay,

Tom Maxwell (17:26)

Yeah, it's shipping the hospital.

Carter Bakkum (17:27)

hospice is really one of the shining lights of of post-acute care in terms of growth. So we can navigate to this hospice section and down here, very similar to the enrollment graph that we were seeing yet just a minute ago, but this is national hospice admissions by quarter. This can also be broken down into different different

markets or states that you're operating in. There are a couple of things that I want to talk about nationally here. The first of which is hospice is continues to grow. It grew up 4.1% in terms of admissions year over year between 2024 and 2025 calendar years. However, one thing that's extremely interesting about hospice is that the rate of growth, the rate at which

Hospice admissions continues to grow, is actually accelerating. So you can see in this top in this top takeaway, between 2021 and 2022, there was a 1.1% increase in hospice admissions, and that continues to grow year over year to 2.2%, 3.7%, and 4.1% in 2025. So not only is hospice continuing to grow, but the

rate at which it is growing is actually is is accelerating. Again, you can drill down into certain markets to understand exactly what does this look like exactly for your market. And another kind of benefit that I want to talk about for with this new the new landscape and this new market intelligence report

Is the ability to again, similarly to the Medicare Advantage penetration rate, you can drill down into individual states and see how both the hospice utilization has changed by states and how you compare to other states, as well as the average length of stay, and how that has trended over time.

Tom Maxwell (19:27)

And are we seeing average like the state go up, go down, stay flat?

Carter Bakkum (19:30)

The average length of stay,

so you can see down here at the bottom, there we had three years of average length of stay data. It has increased nationally by about two days over the last two years. So the length of stay is going up. I think this is this is is an additional indication that beneficiaries, fee for service beneficiaries, as well as you know, Medicare Advantage beneficiaries, are becoming more aware of hospice and the benefits of hospice.

and how it can be a a in a better, more an easier transition when it comes to the end of life.

Tom Maxwell (20:09)

It'll be interesting to look at next year's data and see how many provider numbers were on board in, you know, twenty twenty five and then after all the fraud and cleanup, let's call it, twenty twenty six and see, you know, c we're gonna get to a kind of a realistic number of logos out there that are serving hospice patients and then what is the real length of state look like. 'Cause I think there's a

Carter Bakkum (20:27)

Yeah.

Tom Maxwell (20:28)

lot of garbage data in the data because of all the fraud stuff they were dealing with in California and

Carter Bakkum (20:31)

Yeah, absolutely.

I I I'd be interested to see how that impacts both the hospice admissions as well as the utilization. I will say part of the process of kind of translating the raw claims data into what we're saying here is that we pull out some of the hospice outliers. that I think if you look at some of the other some other metrics of how people are measuring average length of stay, they'll keep those outliers in where somebody will be on hospice for

Five, six, seven, eight, nine years. those tend to skew the average length of stay way, way, way higher. We we curate some of the length of stays so that those outliers are actually not taken into account when we're calculating this overall average length of stay. But it'll be very

Tom Maxwell (21:19)

So you could have

Carter Bakkum (21:19)

interesting to see the impact of the moratorium that was implemented in this year. It'll be very interesting to see the impact of that on.

Both of these metrics as well as hospice admissions.

Tom Maxwell (21:32)

Yeah, so speaking of that, you guys have always tracked the patients that are leaving the hospital with orders for hospice or for home health. And that'll be an interesting trend as well with the moratorium or it's are more people you know, they're getting orders to get home health, but they don't ever call a home health agency or they don't ever 'cause you get that from the discharge plan of the hospital and the the the claim it was done and then you get you'd have another claim that matches up and says, Did this patient really go on to home health or did they go on to hospice?

Are you seeing

Scott Tapp (21:59)

Yeah, we

Tom Maxwell (22:00)

trends in that?

Scott Tapp (22:01)

we track adherence is the way we look at that time. So are are are

Tom Maxwell (22:03)

Adherence, it's what you call it, yep.

Carter Bakkum (22:04)

Mm-hmm.

Scott Tapp (22:04)

people adhering to the instructions, the discharge instructions? And yeah, we definitely track it and we have some updates on that as well.

Tom Maxwell (22:11)

That's awesome.

Carter Bakkum (22:12)

Yeah,

so just overall from like a a broad perspective, I would say the the percentage of patient inpatient discharges, and again, this is just for fee for service beneficiaries, but the percentage of inpatient discharges that actually receive discharge instructions continues to increase. you can see in 2020 nine in 2019, prior to the pandemic, there's about 50% of post-acute of of

Inpatient discharges were instructed to receive post-acute care after discharge. That has increased to about 53%. So about 53% of inpatient discharges receive post-acute care instructions. when we're talking about, you know, eight, nine, ten million fee for service inpatient discharges in a given year, that's you know, tens, hundreds of thousands of patients that are now.

That are now receiving post-acute care that wouldn't have received post-acute care back in 2019.

Tom Maxwell (23:15)

If I'm

a discharge planner and I'm in the hospital and I know that Nana just had hip replacement surgery or, you know, one of the other, you know, CABG you know, diagnosis codes, why would I not want that? It's part of the service, it's part of the benefit. I gotta keep them out of the hospital. I need I need them to have care outside the hospital. it blows my mind. Like I think people are confused what what happens. They think there's a copay with home health or something like that. I don't know. It's it blows my mind that I mean my mom just had her hip replaced, their other hip replaced and

Carter Bakkum (23:44)

Mm-hmm.

Tom Maxwell (23:44)

I mean she had home health

health

before she even she knew who her home health provider was. Of course I helped her a little bit with that, but she knew who it was before she left the hospital. But it blows my mind that all these people were getting out of the hospital, you know, forty seven percent or that they're had instructions but didn't adhere to

Scott Tapp (23:58)

Yeah, and it's it's the worst part of that. I mean, it depends on the situation and a lot of people think they just don't need it and until, you know, two or three days, four days, five days, seven days later, and where we see the readmission start to spike. which is which is difficult. And then even worse, it the worst part of that is if they do try to adhere and if they don't adhere on time or in a timely manner, their time to start a care is clearly pushed.

They don't have a med reconciliation and their own new drugs, managing their other drugs, and they have all kinds of problems. And that's one of the leading readmission indicators that we see. So it's a tough it's a tough stat. You know, we we want to see time to start a care reduce, we want to see adherence keep going up.

Tom Maxwell (24:45)

So do you are you tracking time to start a care in this application by state and nationally as well? my gosh, show us that. This is the number

Carter Bakkum (24:50)

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

Tom Maxwell (24:53)

one thing at we have a company called Tango. It's the number one thing that we've proven that keeps a patient out of the hospital is you get there quicker. So if you can get there faster and within twenty four to forty eight hours of nana getting discharge and get the DME set up, the supply set up, the med reconciliation done, the understanding, the teaching.

all the thick wound care, all that stuff we've done, we know that we're gonna keep Nana in the hospital if we do that.

Carter Bakkum (25:14)

Mm.

Tom Maxwell (25:14)

If we wait seventy two, you know, or nine days, ten days, however long it takes you, we know Nana's gonna be back in the hospital. But show us that, that's gonna be really cool, Carter.

Carter Bakkum (25:22)

Yes, so one of the new inclusions for this market intelligence report is this new chart that shows the average time to start of home health care after an imparti inpatient discharge.

And that's available by state. And I wanna

Tom Maxwell (25:35)

It's awesome.

Carter Bakkum (25:36)

overall, I wanna say the national average is about 3.3 days, and that's actually trended up by two tenths of a day between 2023, 24, and 25. however, there is significant geographic variability and in in terms of how long the average time to start of care after inpatient discharge by state. And I think just to highlight a couple of them, you know.

they're a little maybe a little surprising. You know, DC, which is fairly condensed, fairly urban area, is sitting at six, six point two days. So you're thinking, I'm I'm thinking thinking about this on a kind of an individual level. If you're discharged in an inpatient setting on Sunday, on average, the first time that you're you see a home health provider after that discharge is the next Saturday. Right.

That is that that that represents a significant opportunity for improvement in for home health agencies and being able to get that average time to start of care down to, like you were saying, twenty-four, forty-eight hours to prevent some of these very easily preventable readmissions.

Tom Maxwell (26:49)

Yeah, I'd love to know how long does it take you to get septic once you have a surgery? A couple of days. And you waited six? Like it come on, guys. That's embarrassing. Like we we gotta fix that in our industry. That's that's terrible. I mean,

Scott Tapp (27:01)

Yeah, it's

Tom Maxwell (27:02)

Nana's in a wheelchair. Nana got discharged from you know, knee replacement surgery. She's sitting in her chair at home and she has no therapy for six days. Like, that's not gonna be a good outcome, by the way.

Scott Tapp (27:11)

Well, you you know my issue with this, Tom. I mean my my father, you know, CABG episode and gets discharged to home and you know, home health didn't start for four days and unfortunately two and a half days too late because, you know, his lungs filled up with fluid and he didn't have the right meds and or reconciled his meds weren't reconciled and you know, he was back in the hospital multiple times. So it's a it's an interesting thing. We can we need a we need to figure out how to fix here.

Tom Maxwell (27:40)

in and being able to compare yourself to your peers, now let's take my agency operator hat and put it on and and compare and now I'm gonna go talk to the doctors about why you should refer patients to us. And if if I'm forty eight hours from starter care or forty eight hours from discharge to starter care and you're competing against six days, I mean, if I'm a doctor, why w why would I refer someone that's gonna take six days to my patient? You might as well not not get home health. And so

So now you have the percentage that don't get home health, and then you have the other percentage that don't get home health timely. Let's call it that. I should be using that as a sales and marketing tool everywhere I go. Like I would be highlighting that, showing that here's who you refer to, doctor, because now Trella I know has, you know, Dr. Smith in this county in Texas has these patients that he refers all to these different home health agencies. If I'm better than all the rest of them, why would I go beat on his door and say, Doctor, let me prove to you how how good we are? That's I mean, that's a

Trella use case. Big time you Trella the use case.

Scott Tapp (28:35)

Yeah,

no, for sure. I mean, and by the way, for an agency and especially for our customers, we strongly encourage them to think about, okay, what can you do to improve it? So look at your analysis, look at your assessment of your market dynamics and have your clinicians and your COOs and your staff and TEAM think about, okay, what can we do to better translate this connection, especially from the cute setting. and why we, you know, we're actively in the middle of

rolling out multiple hospitals and health systems to manage to help manage discharge more effectively and connect post acute to acute to try to improve that that experience for the patient.

Carter Bakkum (29:13)

Yeah,

absolutely. And I will say that this is this this issue of being able to transition care more efficiently and more effectively is something that is absolutely not lost on CMS. And that is really the impetus for the transforming episode accountability model or the TEAM model, which we added a new section in the market intelligence report. And again, just to kind of level set back up for a second and explain.

What TEAM is is that it holds hospitals accountable for 30 days post-discharge for the cost, 30 days post-discharge for five surgical episode categories. And I I kind of to tie it back to our previous conversation, the lower extremity joint replacement, so a hip replacement and a coronary artery bypass graph or CABG, they would fall under these TEAM categories. And I think this is where.

In a value-based care setting, as we continue to move towards value-based care models and reimbursements, both for Medicare Advantage plans and commercial plans, and very much so for traditional Medicare and fee for service plan, the understanding the data around this and where where home health agencies can really make a difference in the bottom line for some of the referral sources, the hospitals that they're interested in.

And maintaining these relationships with is extremely, extremely important. So just to really quickly go through the what the TEAM section that we've added, we have we have two charts, one of which looks at the discharge instructions by post acute destination, and the other one is 30 day readmission rate by post-acute destination. Similar of format where you can select an individual market and identify, see where where the discharge instructions or

Outcomes differ from national benchmarks. But I do want to highlight one thing in particular, and just to kind of as an example, if we look at Indiana, for example, and we're remember this home health has nationally 38.7% of LEJR patients are instructed to receive home health. If we look at Indiana, that's 23.9%. And not only that.

The percentage that go to SNF is eight percentage points higher than the national average. So if

I'm a rep in Indiana, if I'm a home health representative in Indiana, this is information to say that you can go to hospitals that may be participating in the TEAM model or maybe preparing for the TEAM model, where you can say, Hey, I'm I'm specialized, we have the capacity and we specialize in LEJR therapy, recovery therapies. We can guarantee that we're gonna we we can keep.

out your patients out of the hospital or out of a skilled nursing facility. And we can do it at a fraction of the cost as a skilled nursing facility or an inpatient rehab facility.

Tom Maxwell (32:10)

It it's super

interesting you picked on Indiana. I 'cause there's Ortho Indy, there's ONE, Ortho Orthopeak Northeast, there's a bunch of I mean, Indiana's got a huge ortho presence. I did a ton of work back in my GE days up in Indiana. But it's interesting that that many of them are going to SNFs or they're going to, you know, inpatient rehabs or whatever you want to call but versus going

Carter Bakkum (32:30)

Mm-hmm.

Tom Maxwell (32:30)

home. And there's I mean, there's great home health and hospice agencies all over Indiana and there's tons of So that's an interesting metric that you've that you highlighted there.

Carter Bakkum (32:39)

Yeah, and that that makes me that makes me think that it's I I know that there the all healthcare is local and I know that there are amazing providers at home health and hospitals and skilled nursing providers in Indiana. And I feel like the difference between, you know, Indiana's instructional rate to home health for this category is really an a an indication of educational gaps where the hospital may not realize the impact of their bottom line, the impact on their bottom line.

If they were to send patients to a home health agency rather than sending home with no post Q care and they get readmitted or sending to a a higher cost care setting.

Tom Maxwell (33:19)

And we need to cut this piece of the segment out and send it straight to every home health provider in Indiana. Like, go to work, guys. Go to work.

Scott Tapp (33:25)

Yeah. You know, I think I think the

key here, you know, if just to put this into kind of logical and practical practice, if you will. if you're looking at insights and you think about TEAM and you think about the hospitals, there's over se over 700 now that are participating in TEAM, and you think about okay, these five DRGs and these whatever I mean these five episodes and seven

Team DRGs underneath. How do you look and compare yourself by DRG to your other competition, to the SNFs, and be able to compare performance and readmission? And that's the conversation these people want to have. And when you think about building your programs to excel and succeed in home health, these are programs that you want to start to develop because teams are being pushed heavily and it's gonna keep you pushed.

Tom Maxwell (34:16)

It's really interesting, Scott. When I talk we talk to TEAM all the time when when when I'm on the phone with you and but when I'm out in the in the field in the industry, I I mean, I can't tell you one person that came to me at the home care homebase user conference that we were just at and talked about TEAM. I can't tell you the last time it came up in in a I mean, we talk about it around here in it in you know, Maxwell TEC but I mean there's not a whole lot of people talking about it in the home health industry that I see. I mean there's a few, but you th and they're the accelerators, but

It's not something that's scaring everybody nationally, and it should be. I mean, there's a big opportunity there. I mean, look at Indiana.

Carter Bakkum (34:48)

Yeah,

I think there's a the it's it's a big opportunity. And I think really the the TEAM model is just the tip of the iceberg of of what's gonna what's coming, right? It's not it's not, we're gonna do this a really isolated model for these time five categories, implement that nationally and then move on. We're this is part of a broader transition by CMS to these value-based care models. And the way that home health agencies are gonna succeed is has

has changed, it's and is continuing to change. Whereas previously, you know, the conversations might have been, we have we have capacity, we serve this geography, please send us patients. It's now, it's now being more focused towards strategic relationships that where reps need to come prepared to say, hey, here are the types of patients that we serve best. Here's how quickly we can see them that time to start of care. Here is our readmission performance. Here are our outcomes.

Here's how we can impact, impact your bottom line on in these value-based care models. I think that's where we're gonna see a little bit of a differentiation between home health agencies and ones that are successful and the ones that maybe stagnate.

Tom Maxwell (35:59)

Yeah, that's I mean I I get it, right? You're a sales rep every day, you're trying to go out and look for admissions and you're trying to work your your things. But if if you're not pulling this data together and carrying that in, you're just another guy delivering Starbucks Starbucks or you know, cookies or whatever. So bringing the data to and saying, Hey, here's here's what we're seeing, here's why we're better, here's why we can help you save money, save costs, and help the patient, right? It's the right thing for the patient too.

Scott Tapp (36:21)

It's

the right thing for the patient. That's that's what we try to put the patient in the center of all. Well, let's talk about that just for a second. Tom, you asked me before we got on the call what kind of innovation we're in the middle of right now. You know, you know, I know that AI is in front of us. It's where a lot of the investments that our customers make in us, it's where it's going right now. we added over 200 plus customers again this last year. And you know, we're we're trying to think exactly how how easy can we make life for them.

so that they can get these answers more eff efficiently and effectively so that they can take and drive results and ultimately improve outcomes. So what I wanted Carter to do is just show you a little bit of the stuff that we've been doing to make it easier to get insights from our insights.

Carter Bakkum (37:04)

Yeah, absolutely.

Tom Maxwell (37:05)

Okay. I'm excited.

You got my attention?

Scott Tapp (37:10)

Sneak peek

now. This is sneak peek. We're we're launching beta in the next week or two. so it's pretty fun. We've got some select customers now using the platform and it'll be interesting.

Tom Maxwell (37:22)

I thought I was

the first beta customer for every product. I thought I earned that right.

Scott Tapp (37:24)

No, you well,

often times. Oftentimes. The

Tom Maxwell (37:28)

Ha ha ha

Scott Tapp (37:29)

cost it's the cost. You you you you hammer it so much, it's the cost of our AI capabilities.

Tom Maxwell (37:32)

yeah, I'm yeah, I'm too cheap to pay for it. All right, what

are we looking at here, Carter? This is cool.

Carter Bakkum (37:38)

Okay,

so yeah, continuing the conversation around value-based care. The I the way that I kind of think about this is how do you be successful in this value-based care world? that's kind of one of the biggest things is speed. speed, having the right data and at the right time for the right audience. so having trusted data, having localized data, and then having AI-enabled insights. Really, at this point, you know, the industry, healthcare in general.

We're working at the pace of of AI.

Okay, so one of the things that we've added into the marketscape insights product is set to be released in beta pretty soon is this Ask Trella AI. And this is an AI agent that is fed all of the data that it feeds the product our current product. It's fed that data

allows users

to ask natural language questions and get very quick, easy insights on those questions. So previously, in order to put together analysis that may have taken five, 10, 20, 30, 60 minutes using the data in our product, we're now able to do it in almost in seconds. So for example, if you are interested in

who are the physicians with the highest home health referral volume with patients in the Philadelphia metro area?

So now what I want to talk about a little bit what this would look like in order to investigate this question. If you were going through the product as it as it previously existed, you'd have to one identify all of the counties with that have home health referral patients in the Philadelphia metro area. You'd have to define the metro area, what counties are going to be included in your market. Then you'd have to go through the reports and identify: okay.

You know, what is the overall volume? What are the trends there? Then you'd have to filter down onto okay, who are the physicians that actually prefer the highest volume of home health referrals? you have to go through all of those different steps in order to get the answer here. Instead, with the AI, we're able to just ask the question, it pulls in, provides a natural language response, and then supplements that with a data visualization.

You can see it's building the visualization now. Typically this is a this is going to be just a table that shows, hey, here are the you know the top physicians that are in this market. But for other questions, it could build a chart or a graph depending on what query you have.

Tom Maxwell (40:23)

Now, Carter, is it interactive as well? So once it builds my chart or my graph, then can I click on that and drill down into that doctor, that location, who his referrals are to, those kind of things?

Carter Bakkum (40:32)

Not to my knowledge currently, but I am sure that that's going to be in addition where it you know the in terms of linking to a an area, a place within the product that isn't

Tom Maxwell (40:44)

For sure.

Carter Bakkum (40:44)

currently built into what we're showing here. This is kind of this is a very, very beta version. So I don't want I want to say this isn't what the end product is gonna look like. It's gonna be a lot cleaner, a lot faster. And you know, for example.

This you'd be able to click on the physician name or their MPI number and be able to go, you'd be pushed to that that analyze page. Does that make sense?

Tom Maxwell (41:07)

It's awesome. It's

yeah, for sure. It's it's awesome that you can do that. I mean, that just to pull all that together would have taken you fifty clicks and you know, and all

Carter Bakkum (41:16)

Mm-hmm.

Tom Maxwell (41:16)

that. So now you're you're you're asking the eye to do and it's going to doing the work for you. You know, one of the ones that we always get asked and and the board always asks you like one of the boards that I'm on, who are we losing to? That's an interesting one and building that one, like who's kicking our butts, right? So if you're in

Carter Bakkum (41:30)

Mm-hmm.

Tom Maxwell (41:30)

a market and your census is flat or not growing the way you want to, like who's kicking our butts? Let's go. Is it

You know, is it accent care? Is it a Amedisys Is it LHC? Is it Compassus? Is it pennant? Who's kicking our butt? Let's figure that out really quickly in a specific market. And then we can figure out okay, what programs do they have that we don't have? Or they is their timeless to care faster than ours or you know, are their doctors related to them or you know, it what

Carter Bakkum (41:51)

Mm-hmm.

Tom Maxwell (41:51)

is it? And so that that it's a question I always get. You know, territory planning, who's kicking our butt and how do we win?

Carter Bakkum (41:57)

Absolutely. So we can we can go ahead and ask this. I'm gonna manually type in the NPI number. users will be able to say my agency or something like that, but I I don't have an associated agency because I'm not a sales rep, so but I think so for

Tom Maxwell (42:11)

You don't know what yet?

Carter Bakkum (42:15)

example we can type in who in who are the largest market share gainers, losers, in the Philadelphia

Yeah. Market .

Tom Maxwell (42:30)

By the way, I'm gonna teach you pretty soon, Carter, how to double click on your keyboard and talk to it. It's the Whisper. Whisper's my thing

Scott Tapp (42:34)

Whisper. I know I did the same time. I did the

Tom Maxwell (42:37)

now, man. I I talk to Whisper constantly now.

Scott Tapp (42:39)

Yeah, so so Tom,

this is interesting.

Carter Bakkum (42:40)

Yeah.

Scott Tapp (42:41)

We were playing with this last week. you know, obviously with moratorium kind of going away and and people starting to think about where am I gonna build and buy and everything else. we went in and we were talking one of our customers wants to move into two specific markets. So we start we simply allowed the CEO, the head of strategy to sit back and say, Okay, we're interested in these markets.

Tell us a little bit about these markets and how should we think about competition and entering the markets. We went through an analysis and then we asked our Trella AI to write a business plan specific to launch it into those markets. And it just it just literally built kind of in an index and a table of contents, everything around what I need to do to enter those markets and be successful, which was super powerful.

Tom Maxwell (43:34)

That's gonna change how, you know, as we use this stuff in our private equity world when we're really doing a analysis if we if we wanna be somewhere, we we spend a lot of time looking at who's our competitors, who's the medical director for all these hospices that we wanna buy. Now, I I t I could think of a scenario back in the day where we said we wanna be in this county in Iowa and in that county in Iowa you could go say, Okay, show me all the providers in that county that are there today and and the goal was are we gonna build, are we gonna are we gonna you de novo in there, are we gonna buy something?

And when you look at it, there's forty two providers in a specific area. Sixteen of them you can't buy. I can't buy Amedisys L H C Kindred, you know, Gentiva, those but here's the ones you possibly could buy that are privately held. Now of those privately held ones, which ones are not for profit versus for profit? So it limited the pull down to those like four agencies we could possibly go by. And so you go to those four and you're either gonna have to overpay for one of those four or you're doing a de novo if you wanna be in that community. And so I I don't know, probably spit

three days working on, you know, pulling all that data together to figure it out. And you probably just did it for me in a few minutes. So that's pretty amazing.

Scott Tapp (44:35)

So so this

is

Carter Bakkum (44:36)

Mm-hmm.

Scott Tapp (44:36)

this is a great example. I mean, exactly what you wanted to know, who's gaining market share, who's losing market share. over the we could this was just over the last over the last four quarters, so two years, and you can see

Carter Bakkum (44:50)

Mm-hmm.

Scott Tapp (44:50)

changes of of gain and loss, which is super super interesting. And then from there, if you wanted to, you know, there's a little bit of the why behind that. you know, do you want to understand, is it because of quality differences?

And then you would want to know, you know, where can I more effectively compete against this agency this agency or this agency based on quality, and it'll generate some interest and recommendations for you.

Tom Maxwell (45:15)

That's really cool. So if I'm a leader of a sales TEAM and I'm trying to figure out how to penetrate a particular hospital or a group of hospitals that are sending patients to home health or hospice, now I should be able just to come in here and talk to it, you know, at five o'clock right while I'm having my, you know, my last cup of coffee before the next day to plan, get the information.

I'm sure you can go in here and assign the rep to whoever's account that is. So now I could say, Johnny, here's your twelve accounts. This is why we're losing. You're not saying the right message. The message should be our rehospitalization's better, our timeliness to care is better, our readmit rate's way better, and our visits per episode are higher than anybody else's in this community. Why are we not winning that deal? And then this is a doctor you

Scott Tapp (45:53)

That's right. We

Tom Maxwell (45:55)

need to talk to.

Scott Tapp (45:56)

we were we were looking at some data related to a home health agency specifically and a market. I want to be careful of the market and the customer, of course, but they wanted to understand how they can more effectively compete. And a lot of the details was around capabilities on the weekend. I mean, there's just some insights that'll open up where, you know, they'll say you time to start a care because we can get it, we can drill down pretty deeply there.

on hours, days, and everything else. But then starter care on the weekend, different types of disciplines that are available for different types of patients being discharged. It's just you can really start to think about okay, what can I do to better position myself and improve outcomes for patients.

Tom Maxwell (46:45)

That's unbelievable. Carter, I see you got a new chat. It's following the Claude slash chat GPT slash Gemini kind of UIUX logic there. Question for

Carter Bakkum (46:56)

Mm-hmm.

Tom Maxwell (46:56)

you on this: Can I share my conversation with Trella AI? Or I think you should call it Scott AI, but or Carter AI, but Carter AI, can I share can

Scott Tapp (47:03)

Far from Carter. It's definitely Carter. Far from me, believe me. Definitely Carter.

Carter Bakkum (47:05)

I I don't I don't know if I want my name on it. I if it if it if it hallucinates

something, man. No.

Tom Maxwell (47:14)

Yeah, yeah. No, but can I can I share that?

Can I share that with my TEAM, i is the question. I mean you could you could t you could highlight and cut and paste it, I'm sure, but is it possible? Like if I find something that's really cool in in a particular agency that we're working with, can I share that with the rest of my TEAM and say, Hey, you guys go look at this inside of of the AI we put we built? Or will it be there for everybody?

Carter Bakkum (47:35)

That so as I understand it, that capability currently isn't implemented. Again, we're this is this is a bare bones kind of proof of proof of concept.

Tom Maxwell (47:41)

It's all beta, I get it. I love it.

Carter Bakkum (47:44)

but the in the future, absolutely, you'd be able to say, and not only that, I mean currently you're able to if you want to just take one of the tables that is creates, so if you wanted to take this, you could just go through and copy it as a CSV where it downloads,

Tom Maxwell (47:57)

Perfect.

Carter Bakkum (47:58)

and you're able to like paste that into a

Tom Maxwell (48:00)

Perfect.

Carter Bakkum (48:01)

Excel or notepad or something like that. So

you a you are able to obviously copy paste everything, but in terms of sharing sharing chats across users within Trella, that should be coming not immediately, I won't promise immediately, but it it's in the works.

Scott Tapp (48:18)

Well, you can imagine

Tom Maxwell (48:18)

It's awesome.

Scott Tapp (48:19)

just what's going on time. So we, you know, very different and unique compared to people in the market when you think about trauma. And you know this, I'll just say it. You know, we take massive amounts of Medicare data that we have unique access to. we combine that with commercial data and it turns into tens of billions of metrics. We're now combining that with our EHR data from PostAcute.

And our EHR data we get from the acute setting. The intelligence orchestration layer that we're building, you'll start to be able to see insights across the entire care continuum. And when you think about this type of information. And as we do that, this is just our initial beta with home health. You know, all of the markets are going to be coming out very quickly with our AI tools and with our new solution that we're launching.

in in in a couple months now that'll have not only new interfaces, new simplicity and AI embedded into it, you'll start to see all that come together. And then the natural thing we'll do is we've been building the meta tables to be able to drive speed and accuracy on the AI questions people are asking. You'll naturally start to see all the other capabilities. These things will flow into workflows very simply. They're already, you know, they'll flow directly into our customer CRM capabilities.

Everything you need to be able to do to improve and and simplify your workflows and have better information. It's all coming. It's

Tom Maxwell (49:48)

That is awesome.

Scott Tapp (49:49)

just a function of building it

Tom Maxwell (49:51)

It's awesome. I know it's tough 'cause I mean, yeah, it you're

not on you're not only starting with a the probably the largest data most rich data set in the nation to figure all this out, but then you gotta figure out how to make AI fa fast and quick and make it understand that data set. So I get it, but man, it's super cool what you're doing. I mean you're

Scott Tapp (50:07)

And and at the same time protecting all the data.

Tom Maxwell (50:10)

yeah, you're making it so much easier for me to do it. I mean, it's it's to me it's easy day 'cause I understand Trella better than anybody. I I use it all the time, but now I can just talk to it and I

I I can't just we were just talking about Whisper. I'm they're not a sponsor of our podcast, but they should be 'cause we use it all the time here and and I I

Scott Tapp (50:24)

I know. Yeah.

Tom Maxwell (50:26)

whisper everything now and my phone and my you you should see me building apps at the gym using Whisper. People are looking at me like, What is wrong with this guy? Hey, it's awesome.

Scott Tapp (50:34)

I think the the the beauty, I think the beauty

Carter Bakkum (50:34)

Ha ha

Scott Tapp (50:36)

of not just for us, but just generally speaking, with you know the trends and technology that we're seeing and especially with AI and the capabilities that we're seeing here, you're gonna we're trying to make it easier for everyone. We have a lot of what we call power users and champions who, you know, tens of thousands of users in our products that use them every day and they know what to do and how to do, but then there's the maybe the CEO.

of of a agency or a company that just doesn't come into the product as often. So they want to come in and just be able to find out things simply. And this is the beauty of that. Maybe it's someone who, a clinician who doesn't go into the product as often and maybe they haven't been in the product for a couple months. And they instead of figuring out okay, where do I go and how do I get there, do I explore, analyze? They can just answer questions, including you'll be able to ask things like, how do I do this?

And what does that mean? And what does that metric help me do? So we're just trying to really empower leveraging AI to do And it's a it's a wonderful, unbelievable time to be able to do it. And we're so excited about the capabilities and the technology we're ever able to leverage.

Tom Maxwell (51:41)

Let me give you one more idea just as as I'm thinking about what you just said. It's it's amazing. So imagine I'm a regional director for a branch or group of branches and and I have a bunch of sales reps and I want to go, what activity do we need to be focused on this week? And then I store that and then every week I can go back to all right, we we made all these calls on these guys because I'm sure you're gonna put your CRM data in there at some point so we know who did the calls and where we you know, we have our top fifty accounts or top twenty five accounts, whatever it is, our A's, B's, and C's.

And who do we talk to this week? And what do we do? And what was the outcome and what was the production of that? Now who do I go to next week? I have a open account here. You haven't talked to this doctor in six weeks. Why is he still on your priority account? He's no longer your priority account. Now he's on somebody else's priority account that wants to go work there. You just changed it. You made territory management a lot easier. If if it works like I'm envisioning and thinking that you're gonna build it, it it's gonna make territory management easier. It's gonna make

Call logs easier. I mean, now think about board reports. So here's a board report that we always pull data from Trella for our board reports. So now I can build my board report the way I want it and then say, Hey, next quarter, go update my board report. It goes and gets the re the refresh data and boom I don't have to go do that again. And every month, month over month, where are we winning, where are we losing? That's awesome, Scott.

Scott Tapp (52:53)

That's it.

That's it. I mean, we we're well on our way. You know, we're it's it's a fun time for us right now because as we can take, you know, imagine what's happening. So you discharge from the acute setting where we manage that discharge, and that all of that intake information and data can go directly to the post acute world into the places that it needs to go, if it's either our customer CRM or if it's into the insights product, and more importantly, into our orchestration layer.

where we're combining all of it so we can watch the patient over a period of time. And that's where we want to get to because if we can do that and we can see what's happening, we can see, you know, the acute setting who's in a value-based care contract like TEAM can see that the patient is now they finished the med rec, they're in home health, they've been admitted, now they've been discharged from home health. But what happens over the next three days, you you just start to bring all those things together with this, which is super exciting. And that's the vision. That's what we're trying to do to keep improving outcomes

Tom Maxwell (53:50)

Mm.

Scott Tapp (53:51)

for these patients.

Tom Maxwell (53:53)

Totally awesome. Now, how are you gonna deal with the number of people that are gonna watch this podcast? Cause you always have a ton. You're one of my most popular episodes. Now your phone's gonna be ringing like crazy. When can I get this beta? So you might as well tell everybody when it's gonna be available because they're gonna be asking that question. And I by the way, I'm asking right now, when can I get the beta?

Scott Tapp (54:08)

Yeah, so I you know, my product TEAM doesn't like me to talk at all, by the way, you can imagine. so

Tom Maxwell (54:13)

I know.

Scott Tapp (54:16)

they hate that I get on podcasts and they hate that I get on stages or anything else. No, yeah, it's a whole TEAM.

Tom Maxwell (54:19)

Sorry, Kathy.

Scott Tapp (54:22)

no, so we're beating this thing up right now in our in our current QA environment. And we're gonna start handing it out to select beta customers in the next week, week to two weeks. So we have a lot of folks who've been asking for it.

and we're gonna tee it up to some of our power users and let them just beat it up. We just want to make sure, you know, we're we're seeing great quality and you know, we're trying to improve speed and consistency. That's just some of the things you need to do with data tables as we build these models out. But we fully expect this version and at least the home health side of it will be in the market within 30 days for sure. and it'll be in beta for a while. And then we're just frankly teeing up for our new Insights 3.0 solution, which will be coming out.

in the latter part of this year, which will have an entire new interface and entire new experience, much faster, much more powerful models and everything around it, with more data assets combined. So we're just teeing up for that.

Tom Maxwell (55:16)

Man, the industry's coming to you as well. You've been you've been scrubbing data and showing data for years and now that all these models and these L L Ms are gonna make it a lot easier, faster, better to build things like this. And the insights is it's so cool.

Scott Tapp (55:25)

Yeah, it's super fun. We're I think for us now it's,

you know, how can we help our customers by building, you know, one of the most powerful data assets in the country that are gonna help them leverage the data, leverage insights, leverage the workflows that we're trying to automate to just improve these outcomes. And that's our goal. We're gonna keep at it.

Tom Maxwell (55:43)

I can't wait to get my hands on it. You know that I always

Carter Bakkum (55:45)

Yeah.

Tom Maxwell (55:45)

every time you guys do a release, I'm the first guy that wants to jump into it. And yeah,

Scott Tapp (55:47)

You'll be on we'll get you set up next week.

Tom Maxwell (55:49)

I can't wait to get my hands on it. And I'm super excited for both of you. Carter, you're an amazing man. I know you spend all your time in this stuff and and Scott, you're leading a an amazing team. How does how do people get a hold of you if you don't know if they don't know you, I'm shocked by the way, I'd be floored if they didn't know you.

Scott Tapp (56:03)

Trella Health,

Trella Health, they can find us at Trella Health. And Carter, I'll send you his personal mobile phone. Call him anytime. He's

Tom Maxwell (56:09)

Yeah, yeah.

Scott Tapp (56:10)

he's on, he's got he's gotten so many people speed dial, especially some

Carter Bakkum (56:13)

Yeah.

Scott Tapp (56:14)

of the chief strategy officers around the country who

Tom Maxwell (56:16)

Yeah.

Scott Tapp (56:16)

are always wanting to talk to Carter about strategy and what's going on in their markets and how to expand into others. So we try to keep that

Tom Maxwell (56:21)

Sure. Sure.

Scott Tapp (56:24)

mobile number private, but I may slip it out there every once in a while.

Carter Bakkum (56:26)

Ha ha ha.

Tom Maxwell (56:27)

Yeah, it's perfect. It's perfect. Thank

you guys both for coming. It's an amazing show. Congratulations on the market report. That's unbelievable. And the AI intelligence and thanks for showing it off here at last visit first. wish you well and have a great rest of the summer. What's left of it? I I think it's sixty one degrees here in Minnesota, so it's about time for us to head south, to Arizona. But I think you guys are burning up still in Atlanta land, all right.

Scott Tapp (56:49)

We are, we are. And we look forward to spending some time with you this winter in Scottsdale Tom. And thanks for hosting us. Love your podcast. Really appreciate

Tom Maxwell (56:56)

Love it. All right. Thanks, guys. Talk to you soon.

Carter Bakkum (56:57)

Thank you so much. Thanks.

Scott Tapp (56:59)

Take care.